a&e features
The soul of Rob Bell
Pastor, author finds life beyond strictures of conservative Christianity
Pastor/author Rob Bell says the Bible must be understood as a human book written in specific historical contexts. (Photo courtesy the Bohlsen Group)
Rob Bell
Everything is Spiritual Tour
The Fillmore Silver Spring
8656 Colesville Rd.
Silver Spring, Md.
Wednesday, July 22
8:30 p.m.
$25-35
Once one of the darlings of white evangelical America, Rob Bell drew strong condemnation when he veered off script with his 2011 book “Love Wins,” a New York Times bestseller in which he dared to suggest hell isn’t the literal fire-and-brimstone torture chamber fundamentalist Christians have long claimed.
He left Mars Hill Bible Church, the Grandville, Mich., church he started at age 28 in 1999, in 2012 and has pursued several ventures since from a book with his wife Kristen (“The Zimzum of Love”), a tour with Oprah Winfrey (the 2014 “Life You Want Tour”) and more. Named one of the 100 most influential people in the world by Time magazine in 2011, Bell’s own “Everything is Spiritual Tour” comes to Silver Spring, Md., next week. Bell is an LGBT ally and spoke with us by phone this week from New Orleans to talk about trends in contemporary U.S. Christianity, how he feels the Scriptures have been abused on all kinds of topics and what message he feels God has for LGBT people. His comments have been slightly edited for length.
WASHINGTON BLADE: You write a lot in your book “Velvet Elvis” about the work of binding and loosing and wrestling with scriptural texts. What kind of binding and loosing work are you doing on your tour?
ROB BELL: I’m trying to give people a new story, a story that helps them see that science and spirituality are long-lost dance partners and because of what we know about the universe and the fact that it’s an expanding universe, along with what we know about how our hearts work, I feel there are endless connections between the two. So that’s what I’m doing — asking some questions about what is this thing that keeps unfolding and moving forward … and what does it look like to have an integrated view of your life in the world so that it’s not just random fragments, but you have a sense that the whole thing is going somewhere and you’re going somewhere with it.
BLADE: How’s it going?
BELL: Oh my word, it’s so much fun. I just love this. … It’s kind of somewhere between a one-man show and a tent talk and a recovery meeting and hopefully an inspiring sermon in there too. It’s like a mishmash of art forms and I just love doing it.
BLADE: As you’ve veered away from traditional evangelical Christianity, who is your audience now? Are you finding acceptance among mainline Protestants?
BELL: I always thought the word evangelical meant good news, so I always thought it meant a joyous announcement that we are all loved and are all brothers and sisters and all in this together and let’s all work to deal with the suffering and the real problems in the world. So the idea of a subculture that liked to claim that word sort of always seemed ridiculous to me. … I didn’t grow up with any denominational affiliation, so I was dealing with this stuff kind of all across the spectrum whether it be Eastern Orthodox to Catholic to Christian to whatever, I was really talking about what it means to be human.
BLADE: Yes, but when we talk about voting trends and demographics and so on, evangelicals are counted separately from mainline Protestants and Roman Catholics. Do you not think in terms of these spheres?
BELL: No. I just never knew what they were talking about really. I mean I was always pro science. When they’d talk about these different groups, I’d be like, “Well, I’m not in that group, they’re saying crazy things.” But I did notice definitely from early on that I endlessly found myself discovering people who were on the same journey from all across the spectrum and to be honest with you, early on I found that all those labels just meant nothing. I’d end up in some setting and I’d be like, “Wait, these people are having the same discussion over here.” Mennonites are having a non-violence discussion, Catholics are talking about the importance of creativity in art, the Eastern Orthodox are talking about the centrality of mystery in faith … There was a through-line through the whole discussion so that even when we were pastoring (Mars Hill), we never saw it as putting together a religion. … When I hear people talk about these people vote this way or those people vote that way, I’m sure there’s some truth in those things on a general level, but they were never very interesting to me.
BLADE: So are you averse to “we-they” thinking in general?
BELL: Yeah. It just never seemed like a very interesting discussion.
BLADE: You took a lot of heat for daring to suggest a different view of hell in “Love Wins.” How much of that did you anticipate?
BELL: I did a series of sermons on women’s equality probably in 2002, so I had experienced this kind of unique venom that religious people spew when they believe they’re defending God. I had done a series of sermons questioning the war in Iraq, my first book had apparently made some people upset so while “Love Wins” was louder, the knobs were turned up, it was really a natural ongoing progression of what I’d been experiencing for over decade. … It’s interesting to see how many people aren’t familiar with the fact that nothing I’m saying in that book is really new. These ideas have been present in the Christian tradition for a number of years.
BLADE: Did you fear getting pigeonholed as “Rob Bell, the guy who says there’s no hell”?
BELL: (laughs) It’s not something I even think about. You can’t take people where they don’t want to go. Some people when they talk about faith, what they’re really talking about is fear. They’re not interested in expanding or growing … so I don’t use much energy thinking about it.
BLADE: Your critics seem to have pegged you as somebody who wants to have his cake and eat it too. What’s the biggest misconception about you?
BELL: What does that even mean?
BLADE: Well, broadly speaking, the criticism seems to come down to an opinion that you want to enjoy the kind, loving God but just skip over the unpleasant parts like the hell, fire and brimstone. It’s a recurring theme among your critics.
BELL: It’s just funny to hear that. It’s a weird critique number one and number two, these people who claim to be sharing the good news, oh wait, it’s actually bad news. If you’re literally operating from a world view that says billions and billions and billions are going to be tormented forever in some sort of conscious hell because they didn’t believe in somebody they never heard about … that’s a horror story. That is such a psychologically devastating portrait of the universe we’re living in, who could ever bear that? So if they’re like, “He won’t include that,” that’s correct, I don’t find that even remotely compelling … Fear is wonderful for behavior modification to a certain degree, but I think probably in your life and mine, what actually transforms your life is when you are given a new vision of who you might be in the world. You can scare people a little to get them to behave right or be moral or vote a particular way or raise money for your thing, but in my experience as a pastor, people are transformed when they hear a fresh new word of imagination about who they are and who they can become. So when people say, “He doesn’t want to bring that stuff up,” well, I’m in line with millions of people of faith who are more interested in making the world a better place. I’m laughing because sometimes the critiques are like, “Are you kidding me?”
BLADE: So those Bible verses you never see on coffee mugs like “depart from me ye cursed into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels” that Christ supposedly says to the damned, what do you feel those verses mean?
BELL: Well I think first and foremost, everything Jesus was doing was in the context of first century Jewish culture … a people that had been oppressed by one global military super power, the Romans, that was just another oppressive super power in a long line of them from the Persians to the Greeks to the Babylonians and more. These were people who had been conquered again and again and again and they believed at some point that their God would vindicate them. Often people have so divorced the reading of the text from what was happening at the time which here, I think Jesus is giving these really pointed parables and I think giving them these images of do you want to participate in a new kind of world? Do you want to join me with God in helping the poor and bringing about a new heaven and earth right now? They were part of an entire religious establishment that was part of the problem, exploiting the poor, dehumanizing people and I think he’s using very strong, very pointed hyperbolic language to say to them, “Turn your thinking around. Turn your actions around or you’re going to miss this fresh new thing that God is doing.” … So when people extract lines out of this and say people everywhere are going to burn forever, they have so warped the message, taken it out of context and distorted the story. … You can take things out of context and make them say anything.
BLADE: You’re very open and affirming to gays. Did your views on LGBT issues evolve?
BELL: I always felt my gay friends should of course be part of the church and serve and lead there so any interactions I ever had were, “Yes, of course I embrace you and affirm you. I’m thrilled you are here.” But it seems like a lot of people, I didn’t understand how painful it is for people to be in an environment where they aren’t openly affirmed and embraced. I just assumed it was a matter of, “Just join us, let’s go and let’s do this.” It took me awhile to understand and now I have several friends who’ve said the same thing. So it became, “Oh wait, this is all our issue, we all need to speak up about this and become very strong in our affirming and embracing.” So it was a long, slow road of me coming to that understanding. … I’m thrilled with the progress that’s being made. I’m so happy about it.
BLADE: Do you feel God has a message for LGBT believers?
BELL: Yes. First off, so many who were raised in a religious environment where they were told there was something wrong with them, they had to do a lot of interior work to get over those messages and it took extraordinary courage. I’m constantly astounded by the incredible depth of character and maturity I see in the LGBT community because they have struggled. That fire produces such maturity and I’m just in awe of it. So I just say keep going and on behalf of everybody who ever told you a destructive message about who you are, I’m so sorry. You are loved and affirmed exactly as you are.
BLADE: Why do you feel God would make someone transgender?
BELL: I actually don’t find it helpful to think in terms of why would God make someone a particular way. I don’t have that view of God. I begin with the world the way it is. We all have different struggles and why is someone born feeling they’re not comfortable in their own skin, I’m not interested in blaming some divine being on a cloud somewhere with a long beard and that sort of thing. This is how this person has experienced life and what we need to do is support them in being true to who they feel they are. There’s no way to answer those questions other than to start with where we are today and what does it mean to move forward in health and wholeness and joy?
BLADE: There are lots of scriptures advising wariness to false teaching and not to let ourselves get “tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine.” Some say you’re a false teacher leading people astray. How does one discern anointed teaching vs. false teaching?
BELL: The ancient Hebrews had this word shalom, which sometimes gets translated as the word peace, but peace in a Western context usually means people are not fighting, the absence of war. But shalom is really about health and wholeness and there’s multiple dimensions of shalom — peace with each other, peace with the earth, taking good care of the earth, being comfortable in our own skin, being at peace with ourselves. So I would simply ask, “Does this, whatever this idea is, a new movement or new interpretation, does this help us move forward into a greater and greater depth of shalom or not?” To me, that’s a good place to start. If it does not, then we should be a bit suspicious.
BLADE: Is the needle shifting away from fundamentalism?
BELL: Absolutely and here’s why. You would not believe the number of big-shot Christian leaders who come meet with me and … say, “Thank you for your books, thanks for what you’re doing. I can’t say that in my setting because I would get fired.” They basically say they’re pro-same-sex marriage and they’re evolving and growing and realizing the importance of science in understanding the world, they’re reading the Bible in new ways, but they basically say, “I get a paycheck from propping up this whole old world view that’s not working anymore.” You would not believe it. So yes, I think extraordinary strides are being made.
BLADE: But then how does this “Duck Dynasty”-kind of mindset keep popping up in culture?
BELL: If you’re part of a subculture that’s dying, it’s terrifying. You used to have your hand on the wheel and you’re used to seeing yourselves as the dominant voice in culture and now that you’re not, your subculture is increasingly out of step and for some people, that’s not just a neutral thing, but a negative effect in the world. It’s terrifying and when someone who has a microphone or a TV show can say, “There’s no need to move forward, they’re the ones who are crazy, just dig in your heels with me on this, we’re the ones who are right,” and dig their stake into the ground, that’s incredibly comforting to them. It’s electric. No wonder people have incredible heat around this sort of thing. It’s a last desperate attempt to sort of put on blinders and pretend everything is always going to be how it is. The great French paleontologist de Chardin said the soul of the universe goes forward. Fundamentalism on an energetic level, is rooted in a desire to go back, to some sort of imagined pure state of perfection of how things used to be. The fact that the universe can only go forward is why fundamentalism always turns on itself and collapses in the end.
BLADE: You must have had situations where the evangelical gatekeepers started closing the gates to you. Did (religious publisher) Zondervan (Bells’ publisher for several early books) reject “Love Wins”?
BELL: I never thought of those types as people I had to have on my team. But oh yeah, probably even 14 or 15 years ago, I would hear of people telling people not to have anything to do with me. That started to become a regular occurrence, but I never saw that as the goal anyway. It wasn’t compelling to me to be in with any gatekeeper. I was just always on to the next thing. I joke that I felt like the drummer in “Spinal Tap.” I felt like I would spontaneously combust if I didn’t get the next book or the next tour done. People who aren’t on board, they’re not really on my radar.
BLADE: If you had stayed at Mars Hill, would you have felt like you were increasingly preaching to the choir?
BELL: What does that mean?
BLADE: Well, you know, did you feel a calling to take the message beyond just church folks?
BELL: Yes. It was time to take the next leap. … There were a lot of unknowns and a lot of risks but that’s how you stay fully alive. And yeah, it was a really extraordinary season where it was like the clouds moved and I knew it was time to go. So here we are, let’s do this. That was really amazing.
BLADE: If the needle is shifting, why does it seem like the mainline Protestant churches have done such a dismal job at harnessing any of that energy into their tradition? Why is all the growth and excitement in the evangelical churches?
BELL: If your world view is that billions of people are going to burn forever, that’s a pretty good motivator to get off your ass and do something so you see a lot of this endless entrepreneurial innovation and energy being funneled into these places with very rigid, regressive theology and world view. Then over here you have these progressive, open-minded churches that are great on peace and justice and reconciliation and they’re literally arguing about what the choir selections are or the color of the carpet. I’m like, “Wait, you guys have such great ideas, how have you made mountains out of these molehills?” That said, I do see extraordinary things happening like the Garden in Long Beach, Calif., or Oasis in central London where people are trying new things and it feels like the best fusion. It’s fresh and the best of all across the spectrum and it really feels to me like people in their garages coming up with the next lap top.
BLADE: What’s Oprah been like?
BELL: Oh my word, she is as amazing as you imagine she is. … She has profound wisdom and a mountain of spiritual riches to share. … She is growing and learning and stretching and asking, “What do I do with what I’ve been given?”
BLADE: You’re so knowledgeable about the scriptures and their historical context. What do you make of that passage in John where it references “many other signs and wonders” in the life of Christ that have not been included. I suppose most pastors would say we have all we need, but does that verse pique your curiosity?
BELL: Oh yeah, I’m totally with you on that. It’s like the writer is saying, “I just want you to know, I had tons of material to work with. I just want you to know that I edited this sucker down to these few chapters, but oh my, could I have included some other stuff.” Which I think is awesome. What a human book. … It’s so awesome and so weird and to me, makes it all the more interesting.
Rob Bell says the tide is turning toward more open-minded views in Christian America. (Photo courtesy the Bohlsen Group)
a&e features
D.C. springs back to life with new, returning events
Cherry blossoms, Rehoboth season kickoff, and more on tap
Longer and warmer days are back meaning: It’s time to get out of the house and enjoy Washington D.C.’s many events. Below are a few to check out this spring.
The National Museum of Women in the Arts will host “Making their Mark: Works from the Shah Garg Collection” until Sunday, July 26. This exhibition illustrates women artists’ vital role in abstraction, considers historical contributions, formal and material breakthroughs and intergenerational relationships among women artists over the last eight decades. For more details, visit. NMWA’s website.
Art in the Attic will host a pop-up on Saturday, March 14 at 6 p.m. at 1012 Madison St., Alexandria, Va. There will be a variety of vendors selling products across different modes of art. For more details, visit Eventbrite.
Play Play will host “Indoor Recess – The art of play” on Sunday, March 15 at 2 p.m. This event will embody classic recess energy, including opportunities to build and experience community and connections through games, movement, art stations, and creative freedom. Tickets are $12.51 and can be purchased on Eventbrite.
Spark Social will host “Gay Bar Crawl on U Street” on Friday, March 20 at 7:30 p.m. This will be a fun night out in gay D.C. with other gay people, whether you’re visiting D.C., new to the area, or just looking to expand your social circle. Many crawlers have formed lasting friendships and even romantic relationships after just one night out. Tickets are $35.88 and are available on Eventbrite.
Creative Suitland Arts Center will host “EFFERVESCENT: House of Swann” on Saturday, May 30 at 7 p.m. This will be a gay, good time where we will celebrate love, joy, wellness, and visibility for the LGBTQIA+ community. Tickets start at $17.85 and can be purchased on Eventbrite.
SWAG Works DC will host “Unapologetically Her” on Saturday, March 14 at 2 p.m. at 701 E St., S.E. This event is a powerful celebration of womanhood, resilience, creativity, and self-expression in honor of Women’s History Month. This all-women exhibition highlights the diverse voices, stories, and artistic perspectives of women who create boldly, live authentically, and stand confidently in their truth. This event is free and more details are available on Eventbrite.
9:30 Club will host “Gimme Gimme Disco: A Dance Party Inspired by ABBA” on Saturday, March 14 at 6 p.m. There will also be a “Donna Summer Power Hour – The Queen of Disco” segment during this event. It’ll be one hour of music with no skips. Tickets are available on 9:30 Club’s website.
Harder Better Faster Stronger will host “Heated Rivalry Rave” on Friday, March 20 at 9 p.m. at Howard Theatre. This event is open to all ages. Tickets are available on the theater’s website.
CAMP Rehoboth hosts its 25th annual Women’s+ FEST, April 9-12 in Rehoboth Beach, Del. Entertainers include headliner Mina Hartong, a comedian, storyteller, and founder of Lez Out Loud; and singer Yoli Mayor. There are dances, dinners, pickleball, and much more. Details and tickets at camprehoboth.org.
Also in Rehoboth Beach, the Washington Blade’s 19th annual Summer Kickoff Party is set for Friday, May 15 featuring Ashley Biden, who will accept an award on behalf of her brother Beau. State Rep. Claire Snyder-Hall will also speak. More speakers and the venue to be announced soon.
The annual D.C. Cherry Blossom Festival kicks off March 21 at DAR Constitution Hall and culminates with Petalpalooza on April 4, the day-long, outdoor street party with music and art, stretching across Navy Yard, and ending with fireworks over the Anacostia River.
a&e features
‘Queer Eye’ star Dorriene Diggs on life before and after appearing on hit show
Emotional January episode highlighted 40-year love affair with partner
Dorriene Diggs, 70, whose 40-year relationship with her domestic partner, Diane until Diane’s passing in 2020, the couple’s tense relationship with their respective parents, and Dorriene’s current living arrangement with her straight sister Jo, were the focus of a final season episode of the popular TV series “Queer Eye.”
In a recent interview with the Washington Blade, Diggs told of how her appearance on the show has impacted her life. She elaborated on the many aspects of her life experiences that she told to the five “Queer Eye” co-hosts who interviewed her and her sister in their D.C. home.
Although her parents and her partner’s parents, who have since passed away, were not accepting of their relationship, Diggs has said most of her family members at this time reacted positively to her appearance on the show.
“They loved it,” she told the Blade. “Yes, everybody that saw the show called me and said they loved the show, they really enjoyed themselves watching it.”
Through an arrangement with D.C.’s Rainbow History Project, the “Queer Eye” show featuring Diggs and her sister was presented in a special screening on a large video screen at the D.C. History Center in January.
“Dorriene, a 70-year-old Black lesbian living in Washington, D.C., had spent decades building a life with her partner while navigating silence within her own family,” a “Queer Eye” statement announcing the episode on Diggs states.
“The Fab Five did not arrive to introduce Dorriene to herself, but to help ensure her story was finally heard in full,” the statement says.
Blade: Can you tell us how your appearance on the “Queer Eye” program came about? How did they find out about you?
Diggs: You know, I still don’t have all the details. I think it was my niece, Missy. And she knows somebody there from “Queer Eye.”
Blade: So, did you first learn about it when someone from “Queer Eye” contacted you?
Diggs: No, the “Queer Eye” guy knocked on my bedroom door and started talking. I was in my bedroom watching television and the next thing I know my door opened up and there was Karamo [Karamo Brown, one of the “Queer Eye” co-hosts] with his big black cowboy hat on, opening the door grinning. … They contacted Jo first. And when they came here, they realized there was a gay woman in the house, too. Because my name was not mentioned at first. After they came here, they learned about me, because when Missy reached out to them, she reached out to them about Jo. But that doesn’t bother me. This was all about Jo in the beginning, and not me. … They started talking to me and Jo. And he said, Dorriene, ‘you’ve done so much for so many people, it’s time for someone to do something for you.’ That’s what they said. He said, ‘this is the day we’re doing it for you.’
And so, they put me and my sister up in a hotel for a week. They gave us a personal driver to take us anywhere we wanted to go. And then they took us to a bunch of places. We didn’t know why they were doing all of this. We had no idea that they were renovating the house and renovating our bedrooms. We had no idea.
Blade: What was your reaction when you saw the home renovation?
Diggs: It was amazing. And they bought us all new complete wardrobes – clothes, shoes. But most of the stuff they got me I gave away to a women’s shelter. But it was so nice. Actually, to meet the guys. I’ve been watching the show for 10 years. I have watched it from the beginning. And actually, it brought me and my sister closer – really. We’re closer now than we’ve ever been. She’s my baby sister – not the baby, but next to the baby. She’s the younger one.
Blade: What has been the reaction to your appearance on the show? Do more people now recognize you?
Diggs: Yes, yes. I’m getting phone calls and it’s almost like I’m a celebrity. And I don’t want people to make a fuss over me. All the things I did I did from the heart. I really did. And I don’t want people to think I’m more than I am. I’m just a good Christian woman that believes in giving back.
And I do. God gives me help giving. That’s what I do. And I don’t want anything in return from anyone. You know, because I know what it means to not to have. I know what it means to go to bed hungry, with no food. Going to school with holes in your shoes. I know that. I know that feeling. I’ve been there. And I promised myself as a kid I would never live like this again. And when I got bold enough to leave home, I left home at 14, and I moved in with a drag queen. Damen was his name.
Blade: Did your appearance on the show change your life and your relationship with your sister?
Diggs: Yeah, yeah, it actually did. We are actually closer now than we’ve ever been. Because, like I said, I moved away from home early and I never went back. My parents had a problem with my lifestyle. They really did. My mom looked at me with such hatred. When I was old enough to say goodbye, I never looked back. And to come back around now in the last few years after Diane died, that’s when I came back here.
And at one point I stayed with my nephew Todd and his wife – but he got killed in a car accident. I couldn’t stay at his house anymore. So, then I called Jo and told her I need to get out of here. And without hesitating she came and picked me up and brought me to her home. And I’ve been here ever since.
Blade: Can you tell a little about when it came about and how you met your partner?
Diggs: We lived on 18th Avenue in condos. I just bought one. Hers was above mine. I bought the bottom one. When my brother came over, she was getting out of her car. She was driving a Vega. And I turned to my brother and I said – this is the God’s honest truth – I said Keith, that’s the woman I’m going to spend the rest of my life with. Just like that. And he started laughing. He said, girl you’re crazy. I said I know I’m crazy, Keith, but I’m telling you that woman right there is who I’m going to spend the rest of my life with.
Blade: And when was that?
Diggs: It was 1980 actually. And then I started going to the laundry room to do my laundry. So I started talking to her. She said, ‘I’m not speaking to you.’ Isaid ‘why not?’ She said ‘because you’re nothing but a female gigolo.’ And I said I’m not dating anymore. I’m waiting for you. ‘No, you’re too fast for me.’ I said, ‘well, I’m not giving up.’
And I didn’t give up. So, I was playing an album one day and she knocked on the door and asked what I was playing, I think. I said you liked that. She said yeah. I said OK, I’ll bring it upstairs and we can listen to it together. So, when I went up there to her apartment that day and whenever I went up there, I never left.
Blade: So, your partner’s name was Diane?
Diggs: Yes, Ruth Diane Robinson. But she hated the name Ruth. So, the only people who called her Ruth were at work, the people she worked with. Everybody else called her Diane.
Blade: And how many years were you together?
Diggs: Forty. Forty years together
Blade: And where were you living with her most of the time?
Diggs: We lived in Hagerstown the longest, Hagerstown, Md. And so, if Diane hadn’t died I probably still would have been in our house in Hagerstown.
Blade: Can you tell me a little about what you were doing career wise during those years?
Diggs: I do computers. I used to do computers. And before that I cooked. I love to cook like my mom. And then I wanted to do something else. So, I taught myself computers. I taught myself how to build computers and stuff. So, then I got my own computer business called Ida One Computer Consulting. And so, we helped build computers for people.
Blade: Around when was this, in the 1980a or 1990s?
Diggs: Yes, in the 1980s. I think I stopped I would say around ’96, when I stopped. Because we both said we were going to retire at 55. And we did. We both retired at 55. And then she started diabetes. Every day I had to give her an injection because she was afraid of needles. She couldn’t give it to herself. So, I had to give her an injection every day One time, I don’t remember when, she had a mild stroke. And I had to take care of her. I’ve always taken care of her. And I don’t regret it. I never regretted it. It’s taking care of the one you love.
Blade: When was it that she passed away?
Diggs: In 2020. I found her on the kitchen floor.
Blade: How did your family and your extended family react to your relationship with Diane?
Diggs: Well, her family, oh my God, they hated me – her mother the worst. Because I put a stop to them treating her really bad. I told her mother – I said never in my life – my mother raised me well. Never disrespect someone’s mother. I said but this time I’m going to disrespect you because you are going to start treating Diane like you ought to. This is a wonderful woman and you and your son and you it’s always about your son. You never, ever say anything good about your daughter.
I said it isn’t going to happen again. You’re never going to disrespect her again. I said you take a damn good look at her because you’ll never see her again. I meant that. I grabbed Diane. I said it’s time to go. They don’t care about you.
Blade: Can you tell a little about your family?
Diggs: Yeah, I’m a triplet sister. So, it’s Dorriene, Chorine, and Chrissy — we are the triplets. So, my mom had a set of twins and a set of triplets within nine months. One of the twins died at birth. So, the other twin is Margaret.
Blade: So then how did your family react to you and Jo being on “Queer Eye”?
Diggs: Most of my family really had no problem with it.
Blade: Were you out to them?
Diggs: Oh yeah. I was never in the closet. I didn’t give a damn what people felt about me, sweetheart. I really didn’t. I didn’t care. Because I was going to be me. And for people who didn’t like it, I wasn’t living for them, I was living for me. I’ve always been out. I had a brother who was also gay, Marvin. God rest his soul, too. But he stayed in the closet. He was in the closet until he was about 55 years old.
But everything I said on the show was the truth – my account. The things that I went through with family … You can’t tell me how I felt. If they try to make mom and dad out as perfect, they weren’t perfect. They were the worst parents. That’s my account of it.
So yes, everything I said on that interview was the truth. That’s one thing people who know me know – I do not lie.
Blade: What are some of the things you like to do these days?
Diggs: I’m a sports lover. I love sports. So, my baseball season is getting ready to get started. Baseball is my favorite sport. Yes, I love baseball. I like the statistics of it. And watching the guys. I wish they had a women’s professional baseball team, honestly. … I’m a D.C. sports fan. The Wizards, the Nationals, the Mystics, the Caps. … And see, I’m a diehard Redskins fan and I refuse to call them the Commanders. They’re the Redskins. They will always be the Redskins to me. I love my sports teams.
Blade: Can you tell a little about the history of the house where you and Jo now live and where they did the filming of the “Queer Eye” show?
Diggs: Jo had a house on 17th Street, I think it was Northeast because it was over there by H Street, N.E. And I think somebody wanted to buy her house. I don’t know why she moved. So, she found this house. Because she wanted to buy something where she could buy a house straight out. She didn’t want a mortgage on another house.
Blade: What are your thoughts on being on the last season of “Queer Eye?”
Diggs: Yeah, we were the last ones. We took it out with a bang, me and Jo. That was it.
Blade: Can you say how you and Jo appearing on the show impacted your life?
Diggs: I don’t know. I’m the same person. I’ve been getting calls from people saying I saw you on the show. And friends who I haven’t seen in years have been calling. … So yeah, the show, people I haven’t seen and talked to in years have been calling. I think that’s a good thing.
a&e features
35 years after ‘Truth or Dare,’ Slam is still dancing
Salim Gauwloos on Madonna, HIV, and why he almost didn’t audition for Blond Ambition Tour
Most gay men of a certain age remember “the kiss.”
It was the moment Madonna’s dancers Salim Gauwloos and Gabriel Trupin locked lips in the hit 1991 documentary film “Truth or Dare,” which is celebrating its 35th anniversary this spring.
The kiss was hot, but what made it groundbreaking is that it appeared in a mainstream Hollywood movie that screened in suburban multiplexes across the country. This wasn’t an obscure art house film. The movie, and tour on which it was based, received months of breathless media attention all over the world for bold expressions of female empowerment and queer visibility. Madonna was threatened with arrest in Toronto for simulating masturbation on stage and Pope John Paul II urged Catholics to boycott the show, triggering a media firestorm.
“Truth or Dare” was billed as a behind-the-scenes documentary of the tour, but it quickly became clear that the real star of the show wasn’t Madonna, but rather her colorful troupe of seven backup dancers, six of whom identified as gay: Kevin Stea, Carlton Wilborn, Luis Xtravaganza Camacho, Jose Gutierez Xtravaganza, Gauwloos, and Trupin; Oliver Crumes III identifies as straight.
We saw them party and march in the New York City Pride parade. They were unabashedly queer at a dangerous time — before protease inhibitors began to stem the AIDS plague and before most celebrities and politicians embraced the gay community in any real way. Being out in 1991 carried major risks to career and reputation.
Enter Gauwloos, one of those brave dancers who vogued his way into the hearts of countless gay men entranced by his handsome looks, his stage presence, and dance skills.
Gauwloos — known then and now as “Slam”— sat down with the Blade to talk Madonna, the lasting impact of “Truth or Dare,” the public disclosure of his HIV status, and plans for a new book on his life.
His story is fascinating — from growing up in Europe to dancing in New York to landing the gig of a lifetime with Madonna. He performed on that tour while secretly HIV positive and went without medical treatment for 10 years because he was living in the United States as an undocumented immigrant. Not even Madonna knew of his HIV status. Two other dancers on the tour were also HIV positive but no one talked about it. Ironically, Madonna was singing “Express Yourself” and advocating for condom use during her concerts yet backstage three of her dancers were secretly positive.
“A lot of people were dying so I wasn’t going to tell Madonna I had HIV,” said Slam, now 57. “And the others didn’t either. It wasn’t the moment to do it. She used to make speeches about Keith Haring and AIDS and I thought it’s going to be me next.”
Gabriel Trupin died of AIDS in 1995. Slam was diagnosed at age 18 in 1987, a frightening time when a positive test result often meant a death sentence. He booked the “Blond Ambition Tour” at age 21 after moving to New York. His friends encouraged him to audition but Slam resisted because he wasn’t a big Madonna fan.
“It was crazy, everyone wanted that job,” he said, “but I wanted to dance with Janet Jackson and Paula Abdul.” He listened to his friends and shortly after the audition, Slam received a call from Madonna herself inviting him to join the tour.
“We all wanted to be stars but not even Madonna knew how big that tour would become. The way it was choreographed and directed, the stars aligned. … It never looks dated even today.”
The world tour kicked off in Japan in April 1990 then moved to the United States and Europe, stirring controversy wherever it went. There was the iconic cone bra; the aforementioned simulated masturbation during “Like a Virgin”; and religious imagery that offended many Catholic groups and the Vatican.
And the controversy didn’t end with the tour. Cameras were rolling throughout the tour for what Slam thought would be a “video memory” for Madonna. But as the tour unfolded, director Alek Keshishian reportedly became more interested in what was happening behind the scenes so plans for mere tour footage were expanded into a full documentary.
“We were young and partying and didn’t really know what was going on,” Slam said. “You live in this celebrity bubble and you sign a paper – I don’t even know what I signed.”
In 1992, Kevin, Oliver, and Gabriel sued Madonna for invasion of privacy and fraud claiming she used some footage without their consent. They claim they were told nothing would be included in the film that they didn’t want to be seen. In one specific incident, Gabriel alleged that he told producers he didn’t want the scene of him kissing Slam to be in the film as he wasn’t fully out.
“Gabriel was forcibly outed,” in the movie, Kevin said in a 2016 interview.
Slam did not join his colleagues in the lawsuit.
“I couldn’t sue because I was illegal but I wasn’t ever going to sue,” Slam said. “I’m not a suing kind of person. But good for them, they fought for it and won. A lot of people don’t have the balls to sue Madonna.” The suit was settled two years later for an undisclosed sum.
“We were all conflicted about the kiss,” he said with a laugh. “The kiss, oh my God, my boyfriend is going to kill me! Belgian stress!”
Beyond worrying about his boyfriend’s reaction, Slam had concerns about the impact of being openly gay on his modeling career.
“In 1990, you couldn’t get high fashion campaigns as an openly gay model,” he said. “I was worried about that. I couldn’t get a campaign because I was gay. My agency told me to say I was straight and it was just a game.”
In 2016, pegged to the 25th anniversary of “Truth or Dare,” the surviving six dancers filmed a documentary about their lives post-Madonna titled “Strike A Pose.” In it, Slam publicly revealed his HIV status for the first time in an emotional scene with his former colleagues.
“I found the strength to tell the world I have HIV,” he recalls. “I was scared but I felt brave. The outcome and messages were beautiful. After I saw ‘Strike A Pose,’ I knew we gave people hope. And not just for gay people.”
He was infected in 1987 but didn’t get treated until 1997. After the tour ended, he said he went into a depression and his agency dropped him.
“I was partying too much after the tour,” he recalls. “I made a decision to live as an illegal alien.” In 1997, Slam collapsed and was rushed to the hospital with pneumonia.
“They started treating me and thank God the new HIV drugs were out, the cocktails, it took me a couple months to get better.”
Madonna didn’t participate in “Strike A Pose” and Slam said he hasn’t seen or spoken to her since the end of the tour. He said he had no idea of the impact “Truth or Dare” would have.
“You look at this movie in 1991 and you don’t think it’s going to be such a big thing and 35 years later it’s still helping people,” he said. “It was helpful for people who felt alone at that time. It was such an important documentary.
“I don’t think younger gay people realize how important Madonna was to gay and queer visibility — she was a big part of it. We showed the world it’s OK to be gay and that was the great message of this movie.”
He noted that, decades later, many of his friends have transgender kids and that queer culture is represented in much of mainstream pop culture.
“It’s amazing how far we’ve come,” he said. “I know we’ll always be marginalized but we have come so far. I’m really proud of our community. The current nightmare will be over and I do believe that things will get better.”
Referencing President Trump’s attacks on the LGBTQ community and crackdown on immigration, Slam described the situation in the U.S. today as “sad.”
“Everything is such a mess,” he said. “Some of these people have lived here 30-40 years and they take you out of your home. I can’t even imagine. It breaks my heart. When I was illegal it was a different story.”
Slam met his husband, Facundo Gabba, who’s from Argentina, in 2000, and he helped him get a legal case together to win citizenship. He filed a case in 2001 and was told there was a 99 percent chance he wouldn’t be permitted to stay in the United States because they weren’t allowing HIV-positive immigrants to remain in the country. But he got his green card anyway in 2005 and became a U.S. citizen in 2012.
Today, Slam and Gabba live in Brooklyn, though they travel a lot because “I can’t take the cold.” The couple married in Argentina in 2010 and in the U.S. in 2016.
Slam is still dancing and working as a choreographer. He’s teaching at a contemporary dance festival in Vienna in July and even offers online lessons via Salimdans.com.
As a longtime HIV survivor, Slam is dedicated to a healthful lifestyle.
“You have to keep moving; when you move you stay healthy,” he says. “Dance heals everything. I do yoga, I eat healthy and clean as possible. I don’t watch much TV … I try to stay healthy and positive. If I absorb all of the negativity I would be sick.”
In addition to his ongoing work in dance and choreography, Slam is in the early stages of writing a book about his extraordinary life and pioneering career.
“I always knew I had a book inside of me. I want to talk about my HIV status. I know I can inspire more people. I want to tell even more secrets in the book; secrets are a poison so I want to tell everything.”
Among those secrets, he notes, is a desire to write about his strict Muslim father and the years he spent as an undocumented immigrant in America.
“Those are the things I want to talk about, the struggles. It’s a love story, hope and resilience. I know it will help people.”
As for his friends from the tour, Slam says he remains in contact with Gabriel’s mother and José Xtravaganza is his best friend. Baltimore’s Center Stage theater is currently developing a new musical about Xtravaganza’s life. And Slam said he occasionally talks to Oliver, though “he still can’t pronounce Sandra Bernhard’s name.”
At the end of our interview, Slam indulged a round a rapid fire questions:
• Favorite song to perform in the “Blond Ambition” tour? “Express Yourself.”
• Aside from Madonna, who was your favorite artist you worked with? Toni Braxton in “Aida” on Broadway.
• Favorite Madonna song? “Live to Tell”
• Favorite Madonna video? “Bedtime Stories”
• What’s more stressful: performing in a concert or performing on the VMAs? “Both, because we always had to be perfect.”
• Did you go to Madonna’s recent “Celebration” tour? “I didn’t see the show but I saw clips online.”
• What do you remember most about performing “Vogue” at the VMAs? “It was nerve-racking for them to flip those fans.”
• When was the last time you vogued? “I teach classes so a couple weeks ago.”
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